Applying for an Academic Job (14 Oct 2022)

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If you enjoy listening to career conversations, why not become a member of the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh? Our membership provides you with access to the RCPE educational portal, the live evening medical updates, and you have options to view the symposia both in person or online. If you would like to learn more about this, please go to the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh website. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh podcasts. We're coming to you today from our new career conversation series. My name is Dr. Marilena Gianudi, and I am a member of the Trainee and Members Committee. Today I am joined by Dr. Rebecca Sager, who is a specialist registrar in diabetes and endocrinology in West Yorkshire, and Dr. Jessica Pierce, who is an Academic Clinical Fellow in Oncology in West Yorkshire. So welcome to both of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

So today I want to focus on your roots going into clinical academic training. And you've both kind of been through a slightly different route, but how did you start your academic pathway? If we start with you, Becky.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

So I started doing the academic foundation programme, which I think both Jess and Marilena have done as well. After that, I went on to do the standard sort of core medical IMT training for CT1, CT2. There was talk at that time about potentially doing an ACF, and that was sort of my preferred option. But at the time there wasn't going to be one available endocronology, which was the specialty that I was wanting to do. So I did start doing some research sort of mostly in my own time during CMT, but the pilot scheme for the flexible portfolio training sort of became that it was going to be an option during my sort of CT1 start CT2 time, which looked a really nice option. So I started ST3 doing that, and it was much better because I had dedicated time to actually do some research one day a week. And using that during my ST3, I then got a British Heart Foundation PhD fellowship grant and came out of programme. That's what I'm doing now.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Okay, so you started with the academic foundation. I'll come back to your route just so people know how you got there and how you applied. And Jess, you also did an academic foundation, isn't that right?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

I did, yeah. So I did an academic foundation programme in medical education. At that time, I don't think research was a huge focus for me. It was mostly wanting to do teaching and to do it well. And so I did that, meant that I get to do a PG in medical education as well. And then from that, I actually took a couple of years out to sample different specialties and decide what I wanted to do after the foundation program to continue working on my project that I started during my academic foundation program and traveling working board for a while. And then I came back to the CMT. I did apply for an academic clinical fellowship during my time when I was traveling aboard, and then I couldn't make it back to the interview. So I ended up just going into co-medical training at VT and then I applied again for my CT. And you're supposed to only be able to start an ATF at FT1 or F3. But when I accepted and offered the ATF, I spoke to the training programme director, and they let me basically go in at ST2. So I've done it a bit of an unusual route, but that worked really well for me. My academic time, I kind of ended up taking in one big block after missing out on a lot of time during COVID, and then use that nine months to prepare my NIHR doctoral research fellowship proposal.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Perfect. Again, I'll come back to your route in a little bit, but I guess if we all cast our minds back to what it was like applying for academic foundation, I think we all applied via Oreal, and that's the same for anyone wanting to apply now, whether you're in Scotland or in England. But what was the process of applying for an academic foundation program like? Becky, what do you remember of it?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

The main thing I remember was having to make the decision a bit earlier than everybody else. I think you had to actually submit a bit before sort of standard foundation program. I think part of the decision making was you could only apply to two different places. I think that's still the same, but you know, one of you guys might know better. And making that decision based on two programs out of the entire country was quite difficult. I don't know what it's like for medical education. I'm sure Jess will know better. But for the research, I think it was very broad strokes. Knowing you were sort of vaguely interested was enough at that stage, rather than knowing, you know, exactly which specialty and exactly which research programme you had. So I'm sure there were people out there who did know exactly what they wanted to do. But I think it was good in the sense that you had, you know, quite a lot of option, even once you'd gone down the original path of Academic Foundation Programme.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

And I guess it's important to say here that it used to be called the Academic Foundation Programme, but now it's been returned the Specialised Foundation Programme. You will be able to find footnotes of this on our podcast site. So if you want to go back and look at it on the website, then please do. And yeah, I think it's really important to highlight that you do need to think about this sooner rather than later, because the applications do sooner compared to everybody else. So you go through the process of applying via Oreol, and then just do you remember what your interview was like?

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Oh gosh, it was quite a long time ago now. But I remember there being multiple different stations, kind of similar to the normal interviews. So there was a clinical station. I think there was a station where you gave a five-minute presentation on why you felt you would benefit from the academic foundation programme. And I actually looked back over my slides from that this morning before doing this podcast. And it's quite interesting to look back at what I was thinking then. It was very daunting. I certainly remember that. But looking back at my slides, I don't think that my presentation was necessarily fantastic. I didn't really have much academic experience at all, but I think that I just showed a passion and a vision for what I wanted to get out of it. And I think that's the main thing that they're looking for, really.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah, I completely agree. I think at that stage it's really difficult to know if you're a clinical academic or not. And I think the whole point of this program is to encourage junior doctors to be able to have time to explore it. Because what you don't have when you start training in a 100% clinical job is the time to explore your academic passion, whether that is pure academia or medical education. So once you've completed your foundation programme, there's the case of going into core medical training or as it's called now, internal medical training. And when you're applying for an ACF, it's really important to look at the specific ACF that you have in mind, because different regions and different specialties will be recruiting at different times. So some regions and some specialties will recruit from ST1 or IMT1, others will recruit from IMT3, and others will recruit from the new now ST4. So again, it's really important for everyone listening who has a potential interest in a clinical academic pathway to look at what they want and how they can get to their end goal. Again, really useful websites are either the MSc, the Medical Schools Council website, or the Clinical Academic Training and Careers Hub, that's catch.ac.uk. And again, I'll make sure that all those footnotes are posted with the podcast. But again, if we just take this time to talk through your application process. So, Becky, you said you did it via flexible portfolio training. How did you apply for flexible portfolio training?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

So the year I did it, it was one thing I was going to say actually was talking to the training programme director of your potential specialty. They often know what grade you're going to be able to apply for an ACF. And that's what I did actually, because I knew there wasn't going to be anything for IMT one or two. And then it became very clear there wasn't going to be one at registrar level either that year, which was unfortunate. And I had to make this decision whether I took a year out, waited for the ACF the year after because I knew there was going to be one, or they had an idea there'd be one, or this flexible portfolio training came along. The year I did it, I think it was the pilot year. And so basically there were four options. I can't remember all four, but it was definitely academic, education, I think management, and something like digital innovation. Yeah, so I knew I wanted to do research in academia. So I was fortunate in that endocrinology was going to have a flexible portfolio training post with academia in it. And again, that came from speaking for TPD early on. It was through Oreel as the standard program was. And then there was sort of this only available for the ones that actually had a post. There was sort of a would you be interested and do you want to apply for this flexible portfolio training post if it's available? So I don't know if that's on absolutely everybody's or if it's only on the ones that where it's available. And I put yes. And then after I was successful in benchmarking, et cetera, getting a post, I was then contacted to say, do you want to take this post up as you've indicated in your or your application process? At which point I said yes. And then to be honest, heard very little about it up until just before I started. And I think I contacted the TPD to say, you know, how does it look? I think at that time it was probably fleshed out a little bit vaguely because it was a pilot post, but actually it worked really well. And I think it's a standard 20% time, and most people take it as one day a week. But yeah, so I think it's in place now, and you potentially have posts available in all four sort of pathways in most specialties. But at the time, I can only you could only do academic.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

And does that last throughout your clinical training?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yeah, so it goes all the way through. So I'm currently out of programme going into my final year of my PhD, depending on what I do after, and that's sort of in discussion at the moment. But if I came back to full-time clinical training next August, I would take up my flexible portfolio training again. So that would carry on until the end of training.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Okay, excellent. But then Jess, you did it slightly differently. So you ended up applying for an academic clinical fellowship. So how did that look for you? I know that you had that travelling in the middle, which not complicates things slightly, but obviously it was added time towards your application. But how was your application process?

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Yeah, so I in the end applied twice because I applied once during the year that I was travelling at the same time as applying for core medical training. And I got interviews in EMT post, but because I wasn't able to get back when I was travelling down the east coast of Australia, it just didn't work out. And I kind of prioritised making the most of that into travelling. So I missed out on the opportunity to start an ACS at ST1, just went into normal core medical training, and then during my SCT1 year, I applied again and was really lucky to get interviews and be accepted that time. Yeah, was there a specific question about that?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

So when you applied, was it again through Oreal? Was it two separate applications? You know, one for academic, one for clinical, or how did that work?

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yeah, so it was two separate applications. So I did them both the first time, and then once I was in my core medical training post, I just applied for the ACS during that year and then started it at the start of my ST2. So it was good in some ways to have a practice for doing the application process. It's quite a bit more, but then the good thing was that I'd already answered all the questions previous years, so I could just amend it and then use those same answers pretty much. And one thing I would say for anyone applying is that the questions are often the same or very similar year on year. So I I think it's definitely worth contacting someone that's done it before, they've probably got the questions, and you can start to think of your answers and plan how to get the points for the application in advance as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yeah, and then in terms of the you mentioned the interview process. Again, did you have a separate academic interview and a separate clinical interview, or was it kind of one big amalgamated interview?

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah, they were separate interviews.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And which one comes first?

SPEAKER_02 11:58

I can't remember actually. I think it's the academic side of things, I think all happens first, and then you have clinical benchmarking at your clinical interview.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Is that true? Yeah, I mean, that's the way it worked for me as well. So I did things again differently to both of you guys. So I applied for an ACF when I was starting CT2 so that I could then start my ACF at what was then ST3. Obviously, now it's changed because of IMT. And again, I had, I think it was one Oreal application and then two interviews, first my academic and then my clinical. But again, for anyone wanting to look into this field now, I think it's really important to think about it early because the academic interviews and in general the academic jobs come out much earlier than the clinical jobs, just like they did for academic foundation. So it's really important to kind of be ahead of the game. I guess with the ACF, the timing is slightly different. So, Jess, you mentioned that you've just taken a bigger block of your research time, is that right, as opposed to Becky's one day a week?

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah, that's right. And I think it varies a lot from region to region and specialty to specialty. Most people in oncology in Leeds at least seem to take a couple of months per year over the course of three years. So you normally have a two month, a three-month, and a four-month block, which makes up a total of nine months. And that's what I had planned to do. But my first academic block should have begun in April 2020 when COVID hit, so I missed out on all that time. And then because I was going into my ST3 after that, I was starting to new registrar, and I didn't want to take any academic time then. So I ended up doing my first job as a registrar, and I was two years into my ACS before I took any academic time. So I took a big nine-month block, and I actually found that really good in the end because I really was able to get my head down and achieve a huge amount in a relatively short space of time. So I don't know if now's a good time for me to kind of explain what I did in that time in preparation for my DRF, or if you want to come on to that later. But essentially, there's different ways of structuring your academic time and sort of pros and cons to each.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah, and I think I just wanted to touch on that slightly because again, I did things slightly different. So I did my first year as fully clinical, and again, that was because COVID was upon us. And then I've come back to have my block of academic time. And I think speaking to other people, it's very dependent on the project that you're doing. So lab-based projects tend to not work very well if you are just going one day a week, again, depending on the project. And it's also very much down to your supervisor. So I guess my take-home message would be keep talking to the people around you, keep asking for advice from your supervisors, keep asking for advice from your TPDs, because they know when would be a good time for you to come out of programme, back into programme, when academic time is more suitable and not to optimize your training. And I think that's really important. And again, that's a very individual thing for everyone. I know that I'm waffling and we'll come back to how you guys secured your PhDs, but I'm just very conscious that we haven't really talked about the way things work in Scotland. And I think the way things work in Scotland is slightly different to England. Scotland doesn't necessarily have ACF time, but they do have the SCRED scheme, so the Scottish Clinical Research Excellence Development Scheme. And again, to see if you're eligible, it's good to check on the national website. I'll again make sure that it's in our footnote. It tends to be for people slightly further on in their careers, so not necessarily at the time of IMT, tends to be more for clinical lectureships, but again, it can help you undertake out of programme research. So for any trainees listening to us based in Scotland, please, please have a look at your website to see how you can get involved in academic research. So, following on from that, obviously anyone taking time out during their early years of clinical training is hoping to do that to get PhD funding. So, how did you guys both accomplish this? So, Becky, you mentioned that slightly before, but do you mind just going into a bit more detail as to how you got your PhD funding?

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, so I was fairly certain I wanted to do academia research. So I during CMT, with the little spare time I had, I did try and get involved in some projects. And I think one thing that's probably come across a few times is how you need to speak to people early. So I spoke to one of the consultant endocrinologists who I'd done a few clinical projects with. He was super supportive and put me in touch with the right people, not just himself, but people at the university who would be able to support that sort of project. And I got involved in little bits, contributing bits of data collection, not so much lab stuff, because I think, as you've said, you can't really do it when you're just sort of popping in and popping out. I think lab stuff needs much more blocks of time. Based on that, we had some data that would sort of was looking quite promising. And once I knew there wasn't going to be an ACF, I uh we put in a grant directly, you know, prior while I was still full-time clinical CMT. And then I knew I could use some of the time for from FPT once I started as a registrar to sort of carry on building that in the anticipation that the grant wouldn't be successful, but was quite fortunate that very early on in my ST3 that came back as successful. I don't know if you want me to touch on what happens from there in terms of going out of programme. So again, that's something you have to talk about really early with your TPD because they have to plan for you coming out of programme. And obviously, if you're in a say for a DGH or some kind of place in where you're the only registrar, they have to prepare for that because otherwise that you're going to leave a rotation with no registrar essentially. So I think they say, you can correct me if I'm wrong, if about six months they need in terms of paperwork. So the second I got the grant, I literally contacted the TPD to say, um, need to come out of programme. And the British Art Foundation are quite strict, it's probably the wrong word, but they want you to start within six months of giving you the grant. So you've obviously then got the HEE who want you to give at least six months' notice on BHF, or who want you to start within six months. So that overlap is quite tight, and it did require a little bit of pushing from you know, paperwork, that sort of thing to get it done. But I came out just under six months after submitting for our programme, and then I've been out of programme since got a bit messy with COVID, as Jess has already said, and you've already said. So I've had to pause it a couple of times due to the lab being shut for six months. So yeah, a bit messy, but in theory, our programme. But we're there. We're there, sort of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

And then Jess, you mentioned that your research time you spent slightly different, and obviously you've had a massive block of it. So, how did you navigate your research time?

SPEAKER_02 18:34

So I I've been kind of planning to start my research time earlier. So I had some idea of what I wanted to do with it, but then it ended up being delayed, which gave me a bit more time for planning and gaining data access. And then I took this nine-month extended academic block and did an analysis on an existing clinical trial database and taught myself all the skills to undertake the analysis and get publications and presentations relevant to the field that I wanted to do my fellowship in to support my proposal, identify supervisors, I did some public and patient involvement work instead of the PPI group, which are going to continue to be able to fellowship. And basically, it took me a whole nine months full time to write this NIHRO research fellowship proposal. It's a huge piece of work you designed, the whole research project, which is going to take you three years, and your training plan, you do all your own costings, so it was lots of liaison. It was a huge piece of work, and that went in towards the end of the nine months, and then I had my interviews when I was back in clinical work.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Okay, and then how is it looking for you in terms of starting your PhD now?

SPEAKER_02 19:44

So I have, as Becky mentioned, have been in correspondence all the way through with my academic and clinical TTD about the timings of things. So we had agreed the date, which is actually only in two months' time, and I'm now just in the process of filling in all the extra paperwork that I didn't realise that I had to do to actually apply to the university to do the PhD there and to register the PhD and to apply for the out-of-trogram experience. I'm hoping that that's all going to go smoothly because it's all already been agreed along the way with all the right people. I'm hoping this is just paperwork. Yeah, we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, good luck with that. I was gonna say I know the feeling.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And I think I and I think we and everyone who has had, you know, some experience in academia will say to anyone there is a lot of paperwork. Make sure you're aware of the deadlines early, make sure you look at exactly what is needed from you early because things change and you don't want to be caught out last minute. And I guess the next step going forward for all three of us and anybody in our position would be thinking about an academic clinical lectureship, which I think for some of us is a little bit further off than others. But again, I think to apply to that, a lot of it is about just talking to the people around you, making sure you keep up to date with all your research and that you've got grants that you can keep bringing money into a university so that you can apply for that. Do you guys have anything else to add about that process?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

I don't know much about the process itself, but I think talking to your supervisors early and them knowing what your intentions are, because it's absolutely fine to do a out-of-program, PhD, you know, ACF, and then never touch research again. That's absolutely fine. And some people would very much be in that court. But I think if you've got any intentions to consider carrying on, your supervisors probably want to know early. They have to talk to the right people at the universities and they have to plan ahead as well. So I think I don't know much, but that that bit I think is probably fairly standard across all supervisors.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, and each university will be slightly different, each department will be different. And I guess it's really important to mention that research is something that we don't actually have a lot of experience in going through medical school, and we'll all come into it at different times. And if you try it and you love it, then that's great. But if you don't, then those are still skills you can take forward with you. And it's just about knowing what you enjoy and how far you want to take it.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a big difference. You know, we're talking about university research and things, but there's, you know, in the NHS, there's so many completely full-time clinical medics who do research on the side, and that's you know, brilliant as well. And a lot of those will have been through research pathways previously. It's great that they still do some.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah. Jess, do you have anything else to add?

SPEAKER_02 22:28

I don't think so. I think the the things that I would reiterate really is that if it's something that you're interested to pursue, then just all about talking to people, planning ahead, and making sure that you tap into all of the help and support that's out there as well, like through the research and design service, for example, based in your local university. There's just so much support out there that I didn't ever realise existed. But I definitely wouldn't have got to the point that I've got to now without tapping into that.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah, definitely. And I guess just focusing on the fact that this is a recruitment podcast. If you remember that all the applications will be through Oreel, you'll go through exactly the same process as your clinical colleagues. But if anything, it might be slightly harder because you'll just have to do that a little bit more. So an extra interview, and you will need to be on it much earlier because applications tend to open earlier. So just keep up to date with all the dates. From my point of view, I guess I want to wish all our listeners good luck and I hope that you reach your end goal. As you've seen from our amazing guest speakers today, they've tackled things in slightly different ways, but they've still got to where they want to be. So keep talking to people and keep exploring all options available to you. So thank you both so much for your time, and I wish you all the very best with your PhDs. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Thank you.